Oh-Oh! The Newly Bitten

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Post by crescentwolf01 » Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:30 am

Iam newly bitten my werewolf character name is Crescent the werewolf of darkness or Crescent for short Iam black with green eyes and I wear a crescent moon pendant and a jacket & trousers also sunglasses and a gun belt with guns and a lycan dagger and stuff there is a full picture of my werewolf caracter coming soon on my website:

www.crescentwolf.freewebspace.com

check it out :howl:  :oo
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Post by Ronkonkoma » Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:23 am

Scott Gardener wrote:One of the major problems I had early on with my story was explaining why my character, being generally of sound mind and intelligence, didn't go to the ER when he started running a fever and having a strange vascular rash around an animal bite. It was especially a problem given that he was just accepted to medical school. I couldn't just say that he was a do-it-yourselfer.

If there are a reasonable number of werewolves in the world, at least a few would need to have ties with hospital emergency rooms.

Oops, I've said too much.

:whistle:
I agree that if there was a reasonable number of werewolves in the world, a few of them, (or humans that help werewolves & protect secret) would have to be in emergency room and proabably one up in the administration so to be able to authorize certain desisions that might otherwise be questionable. If a bitten follow came in, and it was recognised quickly, probably be arranged to send bitten human to a specialist at a 'Clinic' to check the person out

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Post by Moon Daughter » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:18 pm

Okeedokee, these are my thoughts on the transition from human to werewolf after getting bitten.

#1- The bite wound would become slightly infected at first, the virus trying to redesign the genetic material of the cells in the immediate area. This would most likely continue for the first two to three days as the virus will be intially weak at this time (the virus gets stronger as the moon gets fuller so, theoretically, as the moon begins to grow smaller, it would become weaker).

#2- Over the next few days, the wound would heal considerably fast, the infected cells in the immediate area having an already accelarated metabolism. They may exhibit some sickly characteristic as their body tries to reject the virus, but this "cold" that the person most likely thinks they will have will pass quickly as it slowly lessens in intensity.

#3- After the wound is completely healed, the person would, for a certain period of time, experience no physiological abnormalities as they go through a period where the weakened form of the virus spreads throughout the body. The virus at this point would be almost completely dormant, allowing it to pass throught the body passively without any immunological resistance.

#4- Somewhere around midmonth (this scenario occuring to someone bit during the full monn and the change taking a month), the person would begin to again become sickly as the virus, now waking up from it's dormancy, begins to infect every area in the body. This would occur because, in it's dormancy, it was allowed to be spread throughout the entire body.

#4- The intensity of the sickness would begin to lessen only after the virus has fully infected and reformated the lymphatic system, which would cause it to no longer try to defend itself from the virus.

#5- The virus, now with no physiological resistance, would be allowed to fully spread and genetically reformat the body. It will try to first get control of the endocrine system, which controls hormones. This would give it dominance over the rest of the body, allowing it to secrete new hormones to physically alter the body.

#6- This is the point where the person would begin to notice weird changes and tendencies. As the moon grows fuller, the virus will grow stronger, allowing a faster takeover of the remaining uninfected body systems. The person might begin to notice some awkward hair growth as well as an urge for protein (mostly noticably seen in an urge for red meat). A slightly bipolar attitude would develop as the virus begins a neurological takeover, changing the slightly primate-like instincts to a more lupine form. They may (I'm split on the issue of whether or not human form werewolves have a tail, but this is the point where it would most likely develop) begin to notice an abnormal growth in their tailbone region as at first a bump may appear there. Their eyes may also at this point begin to develop a more golden hue, depending on the orginal eye color of the person. The person's senses would also begin to heighten to a noticable level, as well as their nails possibly elongating to become thicker and more claw-like.

#7- The final week before the full moon, the virus will be almost full blown, the person (unless they are really ingnorant and really stupid) most likely in a state of confusion at the physiological changes. The tail will have begun to grow out, resembling an only slightly furry rat tail. As the week progresses, the body will go through slight spasms as it attemps to change unsuccessfully. The spasms will occur more and more often as the final week progresses, each time growing in intensity and progressing further along the change (the furthest along these premature changes will reach are possibly just large bone expansions, muscle mass growth, and maybe the shifting of the ears to become more wolf like, but these changes will immediately die out and reverse, the person not even knowing what changed unless they are looking in a mirror when the spasm occurs).

#8- The actual day of the full moon, they will be most likely be very sore and have several episodes of migranes, feeling very weak atthe same time. This weakness will occur as their body tries to conserve energy for the final complete change. They will not experience any spasms that day, giving them a flase sense of security and well being (for the most part cause they may still have a short, furry, wolf-like tail).

#9- As the full moon rises, they will feel begin to feel anxious and unable to calm down. A mass hunger will begin to be felt, and despite what they may eat to try to satisfy it, it will actually grow in intensity.

#10- When the full moon finally reaches it's peak, the point where it is in middle of the sky, the final change will officially begin. :shift: There will most likely be excruciating pain this first time, because even though the body will have been preparing for this change, it will have not had any initial experience. The change will eventually become almost painless as both the body becomes used to the change as well as the person learns to control it.

This is my version of the change in a person that is bitten. After the first initial change on the night of the full moon, the person will change back as soon as the moon disappears over the horizon. rvt As I said before, as they gain more experience with the change, it will become less painful and easier to control. Those who learn control over it will be able change both partially and (depending on the level of experience) maybe even fully on noght where there is no full moon. This will be easier depending on how close the moon is to being full. I'm not completely sure as to whether or not even one who is able to control it will be able to change on a night where there is no full moon, so as to that I have no idea.

I know the question was raised as to what would happen to someone not bit on a full moon, and I beleive I have an answer to that. They would (depending on the time of month they were bit) experience the same steps I explained above, to some variation. Some things may occur at different time periods and to different levels of intensity. The events covered for a month would still occur (as I said before with some variation) but in a shorter period of time. Although, I believe the cut off date to change at either the upcoming full moon or the next full moon (meaning at what time of the month you got bit and which full moon you will change), will most likely be just a little tiny bit over a week before the full moon, give or take a day or two.

Whew, that was a long explaination. Sorry if I got into too much detail, I was a little over enthusiastic. This sort of thing fascinates me and sometimes I can a little too into it. But at least I have fun doing it! hwlwnk
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Post by Scott Gardener » Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:15 pm

Great body of work, but one nit to pick; a virus can't spread throughout the body and be dormant. This is contradictory. Something spreading throughout the body would have to have a certain amount of latent activity. And, even if it did not, if it's a foreign object and there's lots of it going around the body, the immune system is going to attack it.

Unless, it goes after the immune cells first. That's what HIV does. It's a dastardly strategy.

My own werewolves do that, and the infected immune cells are already designed to have the run of the body through the lymphatic system. In a few days, they can spread very much everywhere. The lymphatics is a channel that runs parallel to the blood vessels but is designed for the immune system. It's under lower pressure, but it's still pretty fast. Cancer cells are notorious for spread along this route, too. (Imagine if city planners created a special network of roads reserved for police cars, fire trucks, and ambulances. Cancer could be the mob of unruly rioters getting on that road and speeding along to wherever it is they're going to loot and pillage. Lycanthropy could be an invading army using that road to move its tanks and HumVees to set up its bases of operation.)
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Post by Moon Daughter » Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:40 pm

I get what you mean with the whole it can't be dormant and spread and so forth, but I had a theory for that. I didn't want to go into too much detail, so I didn't write it up.

This is my little theory of how it, all at the same time, stays dormant, spreads, and is not targeted by the white blood cells. This could be possible in one specific way. As I said in my step #2, the wound would be completely healed and the vast majority of the cells in the surrounded area already fully infected and reformated. When the virus starts to go dormant, it sort of piggy-backs on some unifected cells. It does this by inserting it's own genetic material inside the cell, and then allowing the original (which is now void of it's own genetic material) to be destroyed by the white blood cells. The cells encasing the genetic material will, for a period of time, remain normal as the virus's genetic material inside it assembles itself into several more virus cells. There are several forms of viruses that do this, in order to avoid detection from any immunodefensive activity.

When the almost completely dormant virus piggy-backs on normal cells, it will use the normal cells to spread throughout the body. The virus will not be replicating itself at all at this point, breaking free of the cells encasing it, it will merely be using as much of it as there is to spread, using the normal flow of cells in the body as a carrier. When it again becomes active, as I said in step #4, the virus will burst out of the cells, destroying the carrier cells, and creating up to more than 6 times the original amount of viral load in the blood stream.

That's how it allows the virus to be dormant, spread, and avoid detection at the same it. It's a complicated process, but can be seen it some kinds of virus activity. This dormant release allows most of the white blood cells from the original infection to disappate, leaving the body almost fully unprotected when the virus spring loose even stronger than originally.
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Post by Lupin » Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:24 pm

Moon Daughter wrote:This dormant release allows most of the white blood cells from the original infection to disappate, leaving the body almost fully unprotected when the virus spring loose even stronger than originally.

Not really. You have white blood cells everywhere.
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Post by Moon Daughter » Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:55 pm

Yeah, no, you always have some white blood cells, but during an infection your white blood cell count is a lot higher. These high levels will continue until the infection in fully destroyed (or at least seemingly) and then they will shrink to normal levels.

When I said that the disappation of the white blood cells from the original infection leaves the body almost fully unprotected, I meant that it is almost completely unprotected from a sudden infection of that magnitude. What allows our bodies to deal with normal viruses is that the white blood cells attempt to fight the ifection before it grows. And as the infection may grow, the more white blood cells are released to courteract the virus. In this instance, the majoirty of the white blood cells that were active before the werewolf virus went dormant would disappate in the virus's seeming absence. But when the virus resurfaces in a greater magnitude, the body will be completely unprepared for something such as that. There will not be nearly enough white blood cells at that current time to in any way counteract the virus.
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Post by Lupin » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:50 pm

Moon Daughter wrote:And as the infection may grow, the more white blood cells are released to courteract the virus. In this instance, the majoirty of the white blood cells that were active before the werewolf virus went dormant would disappate in the virus's seeming absence. But when the virus resurfaces in a greater magnitude, the body will be completely unprepared for something such as that. There will not be nearly enough white blood cells at that current time to in any way counteract the virus.
Once a T-cell has encountered a foreign object, it becomes 'activated' and multiplying rapidly. It's not so much that a the body has a spare reserve of T-cells somewhere, and releases them as needed. I just don't think that the virus would be able to multiply that greatly without activating an immune response.
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Post by white » Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:54 pm

Sorry if this has already been answered, but what if the virus isn't recognized by existing T-cells? Can the body still identify it as a hostile foreign body?
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Post by Moon Daughter » Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:14 pm

I just don't think that the virus would be able to multiply that greatly without activating an immune response.
You'd be surprised how greatly a virus can replicate without attracting any immunodefensive responses. A virus replicates by injecting it's own genetic material into a cell. This material will assemble into several more copies of the original virus, with I believe the amount of viruses created depending on the size of the infected cell (basically it can hold just about as many actual virus cells as the normal cell itself). The majority of normal viruses at this point will simply burst through the cell membrane (the outer boundry of the cell) and pour into the blood stream, with this process being continuous.


This, though, is where some viruses differ. Where, as I said before, the majority of viruses will merely burst through the cell membrane, some will actually at this point go dormant. The cells will house several virus cells inside it, kind of like the saying (very fitting at this point) a wolf in sheep's clothing. What I was saying before is that the werewoldf virus will imitate this action, going dormant. This tricks the body into thinking that that virus is gone, when it is actually still there, in greater numbers.
Once a T-cell has encountered a foreign object, it becomes 'activated' and multiplying rapidly. It's not so much that a the body has a spare reserve of T-cells somewhere, and releases them as needed.
No, your body does't have a spare reserve of T-cells anywhere. It does, though, have a specific amount of T-cells that are always present. As you said, once it encounters a foreign object, it becomes 'activated' and multiplies rapidly. After a virus has been (or has seemingly been) eradicated, T-cell levels will return to normal, as they were before the virus was there. This is what causes people to seemingly get better from a virus, and then all of a sudden be a lot worse. It's not that common for viruses to follow this dormant stage trend, but certain rare (maybe not rare, but not that common) viruses will follow it.
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Post by Lupin » Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:54 pm

Ralith wrote:Sorry if this has already been answered, but what if the virus isn't recognized by existing T-cells? Can the body still identify it as a hostile foreign body?
Well, the body's T-cell's response is pretty complete. I read somewhere haven't found a foreign protien that doesn't cause an immune response yet.


Moon Daughter wrote:You'd be surprised how greatly a virus can replicate without attracting any immunodefensive responses. A virus replicates by injecting it's own genetic material into a cell. This material will assemble into several more copies of the original virus, with I believe the amount of viruses created depending on the size of the infected cell (basically it can hold just about as many actual virus cells as the normal cell itself).
Actually they replicate by injecting their genetic material into the cell and hijacking the machinery to make more viruses. The thing is, in addition to detecting foreign materials, the immune system also is charged with detecitng normal cells that are functioning abnormally. So if these cells are acting abnormal then the immune system is also going to respond to that.
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Post by Moon Daughter » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:12 pm

Lupin wrote:Actually they replicate by injecting their genetic material into the cell and hijacking the machinery to make more viruses. The thing is, in addition to detecting foreign materials, the immune system also is charged with detecitng normal cells that are functioning abnormally. So if these cells are acting abnormal then the immune system is also going to respond to that.
I'm not too sure how it works specifically, I'll have to consult a couple of resourses. This is definately an interesting topic though. I do believe that the cells can function normally even when they are infected with the viral material. I know the cytoplasm (the inside of a cell) is quite large and empty despite the organlles (structures that help the cell function) inside it. Like I said before, I'll have to do some extra research on it. It may take me a while though, cause the book I plan to consult is currently locked inside my school (it's winter break) and well as some of my teachers who might know more about this. I'll see if I can use my Anatomy & Physiology in any way, but it might be a bit too general.The hospital where my mom works may have a couple of documents I could use (I'll look in both the pathological section and the immunodefensive section of the library) but it'll take me a while. Things are a little hectic at my house because of the holidays, so my time is scarse. But I do plan to get back to you on that. hwlwnk
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Post by white » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:14 am

Lupin wrote:
Ralith wrote:Sorry if this has already been answered, but what if the virus isn't recognized by existing T-cells? Can the body still identify it as a hostile foreign body?
Well, the body's T-cell's response is pretty complete. I read somewhere haven't found a foreign protien that doesn't cause an immune response yet.
But is that because there's a ton of different T cells, or because the system's adaptive?
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Post by Lupin » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:32 am

The first one, I believe.
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Post by Hearth » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:10 am

In what point will the permanent tail appear?

*remembers from some other thread speculations of whether the tail just slithers in and disappears after shift, or if it turns into hairless, small tail*

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Post by Silver » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:32 am

First off let me say that the whole thing about the moon has already been discussed. The consensus was that the moon affects humans now — we know this from crime and hospital statistics. It affects WWs more strongly. In the beginning the moon’s influence is more powerful. And we also decided that if a human got bitten on a full moon they would change. This may not be what every single person likes, but it IS the consensus as I remember.

I hate to bring it up since everyone is so happy with the drawn out symptoms of an infection — but I think it needs to be looked at. If we have this weeks long infection with these frightening and bizarre symptoms, how is it that WWs have stayed hidden? Wouldn’t people run desperately to their doctors, who would immediately take them to the nearest clinic for exhaustive study — X-rays, blood tests, etc? I would find it hard to believe that with centuries of people having painful, frightening symptoms, that it would remain a secret. People are people and they make mistakes. Centuries mean many mistakes. And a virus that weird and long lasting — how could it stay hidden?

So based on that, I have to vote for a virus that would not make the “victim’ suspicious or nervous until that One Fateful Night. They could things that would make them think they had the flu or something — that would only make them stay at home and their strange behavior would not be noticed by their co-workers.

Feedback?

I would like to see what you think before I put a consensus in Silver's Corner.

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Post by Figarou » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:59 am

Silver wrote:First off let me say that the whole thing about the moon has already been discussed. The consensus was that the moon affects humans now — we know this from crime and hospital statistics. It affects WWs more strongly. In the beginning the moon’s influence is more powerful. And we also decided that if a human got bitten on a full moon they would change. This may not be what every single person likes, but it IS the consensus as I remember.

I hate to bring it up since everyone is so happy with the drawn out symptoms of an infection — but I think it needs to be looked at. If we have this weeks long infection with these frightening and bizarre symptoms, how is it that WWs have stayed hidden? Wouldn’t people run desperately to their doctors, who would immediately take them to the nearest clinic for exhaustive study — X-rays, blood tests, etc? I would find it hard to believe that with centuries of people having painful, frightening symptoms, that it would remain a secret. People are people and they make mistakes. Centuries mean many mistakes. And a virus that weird and long lasting — how could it stay hidden?

So based on that, I have to vote for a virus that would not make the “victim’ suspicious or nervous until that One Fateful Night. They could things that would make them think they had the flu or something — that would only make them stay at home and their strange behavior would not be noticed by their co-workers.

Feedback?

I would like to see what you think before I put a consensus in Silver's Corner.

For one thing, I don't understand why its called a "virus" in the 1st place. Why have the victim get sick, start vomiting, getting headaches, or have aches and pains weeks before the shift? It doesn't make sence. Maybe noticing a better sence of smell or better hearing is ok. I rather have the so called "virus" place itself within the body without the human even knowing about it until that one fateful night.



This high crime rate during a full moon has got me confused. I work nights and I'm outside all the time. When I look up and see the full moon, I don't have the urge to go out and commit any crimes. Why is that? What makes the criminal go out and commit a crime during a full moon? That sort of stuff confuses me. :?

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Post by Hearth » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:37 am

Perhaps body just can't transform one night itself from human to wolf without some adjustments?

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Post by Lupin » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:37 am

Silver wrote:First off let me say that the whole thing about the moon has already been discussed. The consensus was that the moon affects humans now — we know this from crime and hospital statistics.
Actually there isn't any strong correlation between the full moon and a change in behavior. Most of the studies I have looked at show that there isn't anything special about the full moon. And there was one study that said that the highest number of emergency calls (in this case, to a posion control center) was actually during the new moon.

What it is is that tend to have a selective memory. They remember strange events on a full moon, but forget when these events happen on other days.
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Post by Figarou » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:11 pm

Lupin wrote:
Silver wrote:First off let me say that the whole thing about the moon has already been discussed. The consensus was that the moon affects humans now — we know this from crime and hospital statistics.
Actually there isn't any strong correlation between the full moon and a change in behavior. Most of the studies I have looked at show that there isn't anything special about the full moon. And there was one study that said that the highest number of emergency calls (in this case, to a posion control center) was actually during the new moon.

What it is is that tend to have a selective memory. They remember strange events on a full moon, but forget when these events happen on other days.
Hmmmm.... That "full moon" and behavior change isn't what its cracked up to be.

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Post by Moon Daughter » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:05 pm

Figarou wrote:Hmmmm.... That "full moon" and behavior change isn't what its cracked up to be.
I'm not sure about all that "crime-rate" stuff and everything, but I certainly know that people in my neck of the woods start acting funny during a few moon. Maybe it's because latins always act a little weird, but all I know is that they're all down right bitchy on the full moon...and no the majority of the women aren't PSMing.

In fact, just a little warning for all those lazy people that haven't finished their holiday shopping, this time of year is when the crime rate is up almost double. So all of y'all still shopping, be careful and remember to pack some pepper-spray.
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Post by Scott Gardener » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:12 pm

On craziness during the full moon:

It's an urban legend; the actual studies are inconclusive, but everyone has heard that it does, even, admittedly, those of us who work in ERs. But, inconclusive does not mean it's not true--just that it's not proven one way or the other. But, I have heard that some studies outright show no difference between full moon nights and other nights in terms of violent behavior or injuries.

On why we bother with viruses that aren't really viruses:

It's a very convenient explanation. It's one of the simplest ones to generate. Non-viral lycanthropy is usually either pretty involved or highly arbitrary. (I know it's odd for me, a Wiccan, to complain about magic, but I'm also a sucker for science and continuity.) Though viruses themselves get complicated once you start figuring out the details of physiology, those same details often apply if you try other methods, too, since human and wolf biology is already complicated in the real world. Methods that circumvent normal physiology often involve delving into extra dimensions or Dr. Who-ish arbitrary use of the term "quantum mechanics."

On Silver's observation that people sprouting fur and noticing scents would draw attention:

Excellent point, and very much a potential problem if werewolves are neither very rare nor very organized. It only takes one slip up, and the word is out. Still, if werewolves are very rare or very selective, I personally feel there's at least a little room for the joys of noticing weird things for a few days before figuring out that you're now a werewolf. But, that's me.

On instant shifts following a bite on the full moon:

If this happens, the virus theory is pretty much toast, because it should take at least a week to infect every cell of the body. But, since, according to what we've heard, Freeborn doesn't explain lycanthropy one way or the other, as long as there's an internal continuity about what to expect, I won't complain. I'm already battling in court to keep my right arm over a statement I made before Freeborn became a movie concept, about what I'd give for such a film.
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Post by Set » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:37 pm

A female noticing how everything smells would probably think she was pregnant. It does weird things to you, so off to the doctor she would go.

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Post by Scott Gardener » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:36 pm

One could throw in an instinctive drive to withdraw into one's self during the infection process. This will tend to cause one to shy away from non-werewolves, including the medical profession. It would have to be a pretty strong urge, however, to make a big difference. But, it could work--not just as a plot device, but as a legitimate survival instinct in certain timelines.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...

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white
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Post by white » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:38 pm

That makes sense, actually, particularily if werewolves've been around as long as everything else.
Sanity is relative.

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