Language!!!

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ravaged_warrior
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Post by ravaged_warrior » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:25 pm

Why am I just now seeing this?

Why is this necessary? What happened to the "*beep*" thing? We used to have an auto-censor, didn't we?

I'll follow the rule, but I don't agree with it or see any logic in it. I'd say why (I've got good arguments, I'd say), but there wouldn't be any point. What I will say is this: The terms of service do not say "no swearing". They say:
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws.
None of that means "no swearing" (only "don't swear in an abusive way", which I will point out I followed completely that time you chewed me out, something that was not my fault since I had no idea why the auto-censor wasn't there) and if you want it to mean that then it should be changed to mean it.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by Midnight » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:06 am

What you'd call "swearing" would be covered by "obscene" and "vulgar" in the terms of service. (Personally I think banning "vulgar" language is overdoing it a bit, but then again I have it on good authority that in your country one of the best new songs released last year is banned from radio because of a "vulgar" word that my little old grandma wouldn't have raised an eyebrow at, were she still alive to hear it, so considering your country is that repressive I don't blame the admins here from being careful. You wouldn't want the government closing this place down, now, would you?)

In any case use of the standard expletives merely shows a lack of vocabulary. Even of words in colloquial usage... for example, I don't think there are many cases where one would use the world's favourite four-letter word that use of alternatives such as "shag" or "freak" would take away any impact.

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Post by ravaged_warrior » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:26 am

Personally... I feel that "obscene" and "vulgar" would only make sense towards word usage if the usage itself dictated it... "Pricking your finger", if you know what I mean, and that doesn't even cover a swear word. I'd like to know what this song you're talking is, though... For the record, I never understood or agreed with the FCC's regulation of swearing.

As for a lack of vocabulary... I don't necessarily agree. I feel that different words sound better in certain situations. I always found "freaking" and "fricking" to have a less pleasant sound than you know what, and "shag" I thought wasn't a complete synonym, but only fit in when placed in a certain situation (which the FCC and MPAA are also very fond of hating). On that note... That's actually an argument I have against the banning of swear words from TV and radio and certain movies... Why not be allowed to say those if these are okay?

Blah... It's an losing battle in any case.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by RedEye » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:57 am

That's what Moderators and Administrators are for: Allowing the use of words that the "bleep-a-tron" would just delete off-handedly.
We're People (of one kind or another) who are just a bit sharper than the Auto-Censor, and will allow words in certain specific necessary context that would otherwise be banned. Note the weasel words...Please!

It's amazing that you people are posting to a sticky, anyway. Did you run out of topics or something? ??
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Post by ravaged_warrior » Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:47 am

...But the bleep-a-tron only deleted the F word, as far as I'm aware, and that seems to be prohibited in any usage...
Did you run out of topics or something?
There wasn't anything else I felt like replying to at the time.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by Fyriewolf » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:46 am

well. It was suppose to bleep out any profanity no matter what. not just the F bombs.
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Post by Silent Hunter » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:33 pm

But do we need to? I mean the odd "That bast***" is not going to hurt anyone if used sparingly. We are human and we have anger. I would not agree with "YOU **** i will **** you on the **** and **** sideways"

Just my 2 cents. :) :) :)
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Post by ravaged_warrior » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:48 pm

Fyriewolf wrote:well. It was suppose to bleep out any profanity no matter what. not just the F bombs.
It might have been a word replacer, or something, because the only word it censored was that one. In fact, I remember saying a good deal of the others (not to insult anyone, though, just saying them, and not even often) with the only one being replaced by a (censored) being that one.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by Set » Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:36 pm

I don't agree with censorship. People really should be able to control what they say and not have to have machines/other people do it for them.

And really.... "OMG, a WORD! The world's gonna end!" is kind of annoying, anyway.

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Post by Scott Gardener » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:48 am

It boils down ultimately to character. Do you really need profanity that much to communicate? If the absence of profanity is that much an issue, perhaps it's time for some internal reflection. I'm not one for censorship. But, I am one for personal discapline, because, while people have the right to say what they will, other people have the right to act on what is said, and therein lies the basis for so much conflict, be it Morkulv's explosive replies to Matt Sullivan or the ongoing conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Post by ravaged_warrior » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:08 pm

It isn't that it's necessary, I just don't see why anyone should have to go out of their way to not say something which is not independently offensive, but requires someone to be offended by it without any real cause. I don't think it makes any more sense than forcing censorship on any other word in the English language, so having someone get pissy with me because they went out of their way to get offended irritates me a bit. Not to mention that "beeps" and replacement words and audio skips forced into stuff shown on TV, although it's worse with replacement words. Those make The Breakfast Club almost painful to watch.

(of course, this does not include racial slurs, those I get)
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by Scott Gardener » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:45 pm

Going back and overdubbing profanity does tend to spoil the artistry of a work. At one point, someone asked about a down-rated version of my novel for an underaged reader. I went through and meticulously cut out words--mostly dialogue from a few specific dirty-mouthed characters. And, it killed those scenes. So, I do have to agree with you there. (Note that if quoting dialogue, bleep-out phrases like "s***" or "f***" can still be used as placeholders to allow expression of the original phrase.)
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...

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Post by RedEye » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:14 pm

Simple facts here: The TOS is the Host's rule book and we Mods and Admins have the job of seeing it implemented. It isn't the profanity, vulgarity or obscenities that are the difficulty; it's the simple fact that they are not allowed by the people who provide this site.
We Mods and Admins are the equivalent of the Bleep-a-tron; only we have the sense to recognize that the occasional "edge" word is permissable once in a while-if only to make a point. The Bleep-a-tron doesn't. It's given a list of words and just deletes them whether they are offensive or not.

Then there are the "disagreements" that happen here. Having a fight here is like having a fight at a party you have been invited to. It's not only bad manners, it encourages others to weigh in and a little disagreement becomes an all out war. Those we step on-hard.

Our job- as Admins and Mods- is to keep things reasonable for the majority of members who don't like fights and F-bombs. It isn't because we like to pick on anyone; it's because we want everyone to have an enjoyable time here at thePacksden.com. If your idea of FUN is starting fights and using foul language, you probably won't have much fun here-but the majority of the members who DO like reasonable discussion and idea exchange will (we hope) enjoy our online party.
'Cause that's what this board is: a party online for people who are interested in Werewolves and related subjects... bring your own refreshments.

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Post by ravaged_warrior » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:12 pm

I'm still of the opinion that the terms of service don't say anything about what words you use, just how you use them, but that's the last I'm going to say about that.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
-Jack Handey

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Post by Kaebora » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:48 am

Profanity by definition is those "bad words". :|
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Post by RedEye » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Profanity, properly done, is an art form up with classic poetry and the Iliad. Regrettably, most people can't manage more than an F-bomb- and they get that wrong as well.

An artist of the profane sort can scrape your skin right off, make you seem to be the son of Sasquatch and the Missing link, have the intelligence of a bag of doorknobs, and the physical appearance of something that the cat yacked up...and never use a four letter word or any word that one would be embarassed to use in front of one's maiden aunt.

Sadly, there are no such artists here...so: the rules.
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Post by ravaged_warrior » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:17 pm

Kaebora wrote:Profanity by definition is those "bad words". :|
American Heritage Dictionary says no:
profanity

SYLLABICATION: pro·fan·i·ty
PRONUNCIATION: pr-fn-t, pr-
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. pro·fan·i·ties
1. The condition or quality of being profane. 2a. Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language. b. The use of such language.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by Midnight » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:02 am

ravaged_warrior wrote:
Kaebora wrote:Profanity by definition is those "bad words". :|
American Heritage Dictionary says no:
profanity

SYLLABICATION: pro·fan·i·ty
PRONUNCIATION: pr-fn-t, pr-
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. pro·fan·i·ties
1. The condition or quality of being profane. 2a. Abusive, vulgar, or irreverent language. b. The use of such language.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/39/V0153900.html

ADJECTIVE: 1. Crudely indecent. 2a. Deficient in taste, delicacy, or refinement. b. Marked by a lack of good breeding; boorish. See synonyms at common. c. Offensively excessive in self-display or expenditure; ostentatious: the huge vulgar houses and cars of the newly rich. 3. Spoken by or expressed in language spoken by the common people; vernacular: the technical and vulgar names for an animal species. 4. Of or associated with the great masses of people; common.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Latin vulgris, from vulgus, the common people.
OTHER FORMS: vulgar·ly —ADVERB
vulgar·ness —NOUN
WORD HISTORY: The word vulgar now brings to mind off-color jokes and offensive epithets, but it once had more neutral meanings. Vulgar is an example of pejoration, the process by which a word develops negative meanings over time. The ancestor of vulgar, the Latin word vulgris (from vulgus, “the common people”), meant “of or belonging to the common people, everyday,” as well as “belonging to or associated with the lower orders.” Vulgris also meant “ordinary,” “common (of vocabulary, for example),” and “shared by all.” An extension of this meaning was “sexually promiscuous,” a sense that could have led to the English sense of “indecent.” Our word, first recorded in a work composed in 1391, entered English during the Middle English period, and in Middle English and later English we find not only the senses of the Latin word mentioned above but also related senses. What is common may be seen as debased, and in the 17th century we begin to find instances of vulgar that make explicit what had been implicit. Vulgar then came to mean “deficient in taste, delicacy, or refinement.” From such uses vulgar has continued to go downhill, and at present “crudely indecent” is among the commonest senses of the word.

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Post by ravaged_warrior » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:18 am

I don't see your point. I can see how swearing could relate, but that would still have to do with it's usage rather than the word itself.

To be honest, this is going nowhere, and the only reason I even posted the definition was because the emoticon he used made his whole post seem condescending.
"We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some w**** he picked up in town."
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Post by Avareis » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:41 am

Well...This will be fun, considering a few antagonist characters might be loudmouths as a way of protesting against this golden rule of morality. That is to say if they are even still around anymore.

I remember being on a not-so-recent forum that was closed because of the language and treatment of others. This liberty to use profanity resulted in a gang-like community that preyed on those who were freethinkers. The administrators did nothing and as a result the forum lost some good members and gained a gang-like movement, where the the members demanded respect and gave none. Discrimination of unmentionable religions came up, harassment and personal attacks became frequent. They became the authority. At that point, there was no repairing the forum and of the decision of the administrator it was shut down.
I always said that prevention was the best cure. I'm glad I made that move to the administrator back then.

On another note, the amount of post one has made in the past and the veteranship of being on the forum so long should never be reason for tenure. No matter how respected and how long the person has been in a group it should not allow them to be undistinguished as THAT type of antagonist. I often notice the newer members are targeted instead as a way of showing authority over the fresher tide. I guess this authoritative action will prove to be interesting in the times that come.

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Post by RedEye » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:06 pm

The idea is that everybody get equal treatment here. Those with high post numbers actually have less of a reason to think they can say whatever thay want because thay know better...moreso than some newby who doesn't get the idea to begin with.

Think of this as a Party. There are things you just don't say at a party, unless you're spoiling for a whompin' or want to be shown the door.
Courtesy is a part of respecting your friends and co-members, both here on the board and in real life.

There are Administrators and Moderators here because we are smarter than the bleep-a-tron, and know when some words are used-it's because they're the only words available; and let pass what might otherwise be censored or deleted by a machine with a list of words. We also know when someone is playing spelling gaymes to get around the automatic censor here (which has a total of less than fifteen words it reacts to).

We want people to have a pleasant time here; not a confronational bashing from the old timers or those people who just won't abandon profanity and obscenity for any reason. Profanity or Obscenity doesn't make you appear strong or masculine-it just makes you look like you have a limited vocabulary.
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Post by Avareis » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:34 pm

Well said, Redeye. I'm glad that it is that way these days. When I first joined "the first time" there were a few characters that thought that since they had bigger number it meant maturity level. So, in a way it has evolved.

Speaking of people who sometimes misread posts. Yeah, just did that with Redeye. So it's very easy to misinterpret what people are saying. In the last part of his post, I read obesity instead of obscenity.
:lol:
Obesity....Silly Redeye.

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Post by TheFullMoonsWrath » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:35 am

okay,lets think of it this way,lets say you got two warnings about cursing,then somebody that knows your name,and password goes on your account and swears again,how could you explain that to the adminisrators? would they believe you?

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Post by Midnight » Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:32 am

Prevention is better than cure: don't give out your password to anyone else in the first place. If you think anyone else has figured it out: change it.

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Post by Howlitzer » Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:02 am

or.... use 20 different passwords like I do and have them all auto-saved on your computer so it's the only one you can really login on without spending a 10 minutes trying all 20 passwords.

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