What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by JoshuaMadoc » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:44 am

"Curly" is me, you're the one getting the splattered mug on the left. Look at it again.

My point is: stop gunning for gold in the special olympics of playground dummy spits, the both of you. Morkulv, I know you since the beginning of time, so I don't need to say anything more, but Zandt, you're in your late 50s. Please stop acting like my mentally 3-year-old stepfather with a severe case of diabetic optimism.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:27 am

Uh, okay, whutever that means...but that's the first time I've heard optimism referred to as a bad thing. But diabetic optimism may be bad......

Frankly, I don't intend to be anybody's father here (or stepfather). I just want to clear up the misconception, for anyone who has the mental capability to at least pay attention, that nothing needs to be "done with us." The idea that we need to be "handled" is rediculous.

There was once quite a few Therians on this site and many of them called themselves Weres and specifically Werewolves. I don't remember them being particularly rejected or "handled" back then. I'm also aware that there's an antagonism between the Therian and Otherkin communities (described by Mr. Morkov as "arrogance" - that's a New Age term applied to anyone that doesn't agree with you). Could it be that an influx of Otherkin created an environment where there was a need to "do something" with us?

As I mentioned to him, I get agressive when people start making blatant statements of opinion as though it were the gospel - and especially when they act like authorities, knowing absolutely nothing they're talking about.

I don't think that's juvenile. I think it's pretty natural. What was rather juvenile was the tactics that I was using in the last couple of posts. I was in fact, reflecting Mr. Morkov's tactics back at him, so, yes they were juvenile and I'm glad you noticed it.

Kitetsu.... actually I've seen the name, so you may know me as well. But it's been awhile.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:16 pm

WolfVanZandt wrote:Woof!

Did I touch a nerve?

Yep, I'm serious. And I don't think I "lost" either.

Your the one that started off with the idea that Therians because they are Otherkin are fatasizers and people who want attention.

I guess when you call them fantasizers it's alright but when I call them fantasizers, I'm being arrogant. I sense some hypocrasy here.
Haha, the only thing your posts are touching is my humour, because the way you make fun of yourself is astounding. Plus, because you are a 50+ year old guy it makes this even more hilarious. Didn't you say that you didn't want to talk with me anymore? Haha. You also have seriously shoddy grammarskills for a guy in his 50's.

Quote one sentence from me that says that all therians are fantasizers? I started off by adressing your arrogant post about how you think the term 'werewolf' should be exclusive to therians, which is by far the most rediculous thing I've read in a long time.

To me this is just a funny argument, and I feel no need to cuss you out or anything, because most of the time you have no problem making fun of yourself. The fact that you started calling me ignorant, and claim all sorts of things about me that you have no clue about only shows how much of a sore loser you are.

@Kitetsu: I can probably keep this up all week, but just to stop this guy from polluting this topic I'll stop. :D
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:39 pm

Oog. I must apologise to you. That was Ledrif that made that statement.

You still haven't looked up my evidence that Werewolves are historical and that they looked like modern Therians, have you?

You're certainly right though - you can keep it up all week, You can keep it up forever - but I explained that, didn't I?

Claiming that you're ignorant has to do with the sources you claim. It has nothing to do with whether I'm a loser - sore or otherwise - or not. All the sources that you've claimed came from online (not a reliable source of information) and from the Otherkin community, which is certainly a biased source.

My sources include both considerable online and offline contacts with the Therian community and extensive literature searches at a major research library. Unless you have other sources you want to claim, yours are poor and the fact that you don't seem to follow up on legitimate sources indicates that you don't want to know. You don't want to be confused by the facts.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:25 pm

WolfVanZandt wrote:Oog. I must apologise to you. That was Ledrif that made that statement.

You still haven't looked up my evidence that Werewolves are historical and that they looked like modern Therians, have you?

You're certainly right though - you can keep it up all week, You can keep it up forever - but I explained that, didn't I?

Claiming that you're ignorant has to do with the sources you claim. It has nothing to do with whether I'm a loser - sore or otherwise - or not. All the sources that you've claimed came from online (not a reliable source of information) and from the Otherkin community, which is certainly a biased source.

My sources include both considerable online and offline contacts with the Therian community and extensive literature searches at a major research library. Unless you have other sources you want to claim, yours are poor and the fact that you don't seem to follow up on legitimate sources indicates that you don't want to know. You don't want to be confused by the facts.
Okay then mister scientist, lets talk about your "evidence": none, unless you count that website of yours which as you said, is "not a reliable source of information". Whoops; talking about contradicting yourself. Also funny how you say that the otherkincommunity is a biased source when YOU ARE PART OF THE THERIAN-COMMUNITY YOURSELF. Like I said before, I can tear up your rediculous posts like this each time but it would be too much of a timewaste, considering how stubborn you are.

You can claim a whole lot, but if you don't have anything to back it up then you shouldn't bother posting it. You claimed that therians earned the right to call themselves werewolves (not 'weres', but 'werewolf'), and I called that statement bullcrap, which makes it your job to proof it otherwise with valid evidence. Congratulations on reading a book, but that still doesn't cut the argument because you didn't post any direct evidence which is why you are such a lousy debater. In what book does it say that therians have the right to call themselves werewolves? If you have so much evidence and resources, show it to me or STFU.

:roll:

This is all I'm going to say about it.
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:18 pm

Hmmm....I thought you were going to leave (no that I particularly want you to...)

Let's get a few things out of the way on this round. I never claimed to be an exceptional scientist. I am a scientists because that's my training but I neither have the equipment, the funding, or the opportunities of a research scientist nor have I claimed that. I only do what I can.

I only say that, judging by what you claim to be your sources, the quality of my information is quite a lot better than yours. I've pointed out why I make that claim and you haven't refuted it yet.

The evidence I gave you was two books. Why do you continue to ignore that?

I am part of the Therian community, but I am not part of the Otherkin community. Further more, the online communities of either is almost worthless for evidence simply because you can never tell whether who you're talking to is actually what they say, a poser, a roleplayer, a wannabee, or, for that matter, a bot. Until you get face to face with someone, your evidence is suspect.

I'm the host of one of the largest and the longest continuously running Howl in the United States. I've been face to face with lots and lots or Therians and I've also been inside the Vampire community. Together, they give me opportunities to be in contact with lots and lots of Otherkin face to face.

The books are the evidence - or the beginning. If you're too lazy to check those out, then why in the world would I waste time giving you any other leads?

The term "Were" is generic for the more specific "Werewolf". if a Therian is right to call theirself a "Were", then a Wolf Therian would be right in calling theirself a "Werewolf".

As it is, I don't think I ever said that we "earned" the right to call ourselves "Weres", It's simply what we are. Humans don't earn the right to call themselves humans any more than dogs earn the right to call themselves dogs.

My contention is that, what the original Werewolves were is what we now are. If you want to see what the original Werewolves were, check out the two books I mentioned or you can follow up on the biblography on my website (there's a link in the food section) and learn a lot. Then check out a legitimate Therian site like the Werelist (with trepidation I mention that because if you act on there like you do here, you'll be booted very soon and you'll embarrass me.) and see what the Modern Therian community is like.

But frankly, I'd rather you just kept snapping like a mad dog in space because your purpose to track down information won't be to learn anything, but only to prove me wrong.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by JoshuaMadoc » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:20 pm

You see, this is why I even scribbled me splattering the faces of the both of you. If this keeps going on, I'm tempted to make more and more degrading scribbles. :|

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:28 am

Hey, do. Iiked that.
Anyway, I've lost interest in playing - I'm all information from now on - well, for awhile anyway.

How about joining in - a rational voice would be nice.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Morkulv » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:28 am

WolfVanZandt wrote:Hmmm....I thought you were going to leave (no that I particularly want you to...)

Let's get a few things out of the way on this round. I never claimed to be an exceptional scientist. I am a scientists because that's my training but I neither have the equipment, the funding, or the opportunities of a research scientist nor have I claimed that. I only do what I can.

I only say that, judging by what you claim to be your sources, the quality of my information is quite a lot better than yours. I've pointed out why I make that claim and you haven't refuted it yet.

The evidence I gave you was two books. Why do you continue to ignore that?

I am part of the Therian community, but I am not part of the Otherkin community. Further more, the online communities of either is almost worthless for evidence simply because you can never tell whether who you're talking to is actually what they say, a poser, a roleplayer, a wannabee, or, for that matter, a bot. Until you get face to face with someone, your evidence is suspect.

I'm the host of one of the largest and the longest continuously running Howl in the United States. I've been face to face with lots and lots or Therians and I've also been inside the Vampire community. Together, they give me opportunities to be in contact with lots and lots of Otherkin face to face.

The books are the evidence - or the beginning. If you're too lazy to check those out, then why in the world would I waste time giving you any other leads?

The term "Were" is generic for the more specific "Werewolf". if a Therian is right to call theirself a "Were", then a Wolf Therian would be right in calling theirself a "Werewolf".

As it is, I don't think I ever said that we "earned" the right to call ourselves "Weres", It's simply what we are. Humans don't earn the right to call themselves humans any more than dogs earn the right to call themselves dogs.

My contention is that, what the original Werewolves were is what we now are. If you want to see what the original Werewolves were, check out the two books I mentioned or you can follow up on the biblography on my website (there's a link in the food section) and learn a lot. Then check out a legitimate Therian site like the Werelist (with trepidation I mention that because if you act on there like you do here, you'll be booted very soon and you'll embarrass me.) and see what the Modern Therian community is like.

But frankly, I'd rather you just kept snapping like a mad dog in space because your purpose to track down information won't be to learn anything, but only to prove me wrong.
*sigh* I'll make one final attempt to get through to you.

Again, your arrogance is astounding since you still think you need to educate me on therianthropy, which I already know plenty about. I think people like you are stubborn, and arrogant people who are not willing to think for even a second outside their little world, and as soon as you show any critisism they freak out. People like you make me feel glad that I'm not a part of that community any longer.

I don't have to post any resources because I didn't make the claim, Sherlock.

You say that otherkin are rediculous, but I can tell you right now that alot of otherkin don't talk about human beings in an objective way, which makes you at least twice as rediculous as some otherkin might be.

Let me burst your bubble really quick: you are not a werewolf, you are a therian. A werewolf is a mythological creature that is both man and wolf, you are not. You can act like a wolf, feel like a wolf, but you can never BE a wolf, not even partially. Get. This. Through. Your. Head.

The fact that I need to say this to a 50+ year old guy is just mindboggling on so many levels.
kitetsu wrote:You see, this is why I even scribbled me splattering the faces of the both of you. If this keeps going on, I'm tempted to make more and more degrading scribbles. :|
I lol'd though, nice art. :D
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:14 pm

You stated an opinion. You didn't support it (and further, you don't show that you know anything about the Therian community).

I stated a claim. I gave evidence. You're unwilling to check the evidence out or respond to it in any rational way.

In any normal debate you would be out immediately.

Let me try to get this through to you. You display ignorance. You state opinions as though you know what you talk about. You're rude and abusive from the start. I don't know how others on this forum are reacting but given what's on this thread, I can;t see how you can have any credibility left.

Now, if you're actualy trying to get something through to me, you've chosen an idotic way to do it.

Try saying something that actually makes sense.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by ledrif » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:46 am

You two seriously want to continue with this? :(
Seriously Morkulv he will get your reality and distort it to make he's own and you will do the same! OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! let him believe in what he wants to and you believe in what you want to!!!
AND LET'S STOP THIS DAMM FLAME WAR!!!!
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:25 pm

You're right Ledril.

We've both said everything over and over. Let anyone interested read it and come to their own conclusions.

Evidently no one else is interested because no one else is commenting or asking questions.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Berserker » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:21 am

Arguments about "historical therians" are moot, because this isn't a therian forum; the werewolf creature we talk about here bears no resemblance to the therian construct that you represent.

As a result, anyone who comes on here and claims to be a werewolf is going to be assumed to be a roleplaying kiddie and ousted appropriately, since we do not have a historical context that would allow us to equate the term "werewolf" with "wolf therian." If I posted on werelist that I call myself a "therian" because I like cartoon animals, and tried to pound acceptable usage into their heads, they would burn me at the stake. It wouldn't matter if I could dig up evidence to support it, because that usage simply wouldn't belong there.
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:57 pm

That's probably true now. There was a time when quite a few people on here called themselves "Werewolves". The constitution of the board has changed.

But if you go back and read how I wound up posting on this thread, it was an explanation of how people may call themselves a werewolf in all innocence and be completely legitimate about it. The very next poster said it made sense, so not everyone has such a fixed idee that no one should dare to call themselves a Werewolf on this board and I haven't noticed the administration complaining (so what do you mean "oust"?)

I realize that you may not "have a context" to understand why a person may call themselves a werewolf, but it doesn't harm you to gain new knowledge and to realize that there is an appropriate reason for a person to call mselves a Werewolf.

Why is it you're so stuck on myths and movies and so resistant to the history behind the myths and movies? That's just peculiar....

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by JoshuaMadoc » Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:57 pm

WolfVanZandt wrote:Why is it you're so stuck on myths and movies and so resistant to the history behind the myths and movies? That's just peculiar....
*sigh*

Because that's part of the initial purpose of this forum and part of the collective mindset of a large bulk of the userbase. -_-

Anything else you'd like to add, Moon's Witness?

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:08 pm

I understand that. I'm a member of Werewolf Cafe and I never tire of reminding Therians that it's not a Therian forum - it's a forum for Wereolf Fans (well, yes, I do, actually). On the other hand, you cannot understand the myth or the movie without understanding the history.

I also realize that some people don't care about the history - they just want to enjoy a movie - but at least one person responded positively. Are you saying absolutely that no one here is interested in the history behind the myth. Why in sanity's name would you include everything there is to consider about something except the fact behind it.

And why the big change from the early days of this forum. Nothing was excluded then.

Actually, I'm not trying to intrude on anything. I was explaining a simple fact - why some people may legitimately prefer using the term "Werewolf". That is exactly what this thread is about.

Frankly, I would have never even brought it up if this thread had not been here.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Sharfan » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:37 am

Yes, but this particular thread was created for something completely different.

While it is important to know the history of one's interests, said history would be better represented and recieved when set aside in a thread specific to this history. Not posted in a thread which was originally created with the question of what to do with lifeless idiots sitting in their basement on a computer telling everyone that he's some kind of hollywood creature come to life and that he changes into a wolf, actually physically changes, once a month, and blah blah blah. . .

While I'm sure some appreciate your need to discuss proper Therian/Werewolf terminology and its history, such a thing would run much smoother were it put in the right area. I for one wouldn't mind discussing the history of werewolves, but I'm getting pretty tired of this debate myself. And, you know it's gone pretty far when I post negatively towards it. I'm normally very laid back and can deal with quite a bit. But, this is just going to far.

I also realize that I'm late, and the argument has probably already died down. But, whatever.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Berserker » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:46 am

WolfVanZandt wrote: I also realize that some people don't care about the history - they just want to enjoy a movie - but at least one person responded positively. Are you saying absolutely that no one here is interested in the history behind the myth. Why in sanity's name would you include everything there is to consider about something except the fact behind it.
Of course we're interested in the history behind the myth. We have an entire forum dedicated to it. It's a history filled with superstition, where the wolf was a sun-swallowing monster, harbinger of the devil, or a divine punishment inflicted mostly on evil-doers. Evidence to the contrary is fringe at best.

http://therian.wikia.com/wiki/Therianthropy

"A few people have speculated that the fictional Were-Wolf legend might be traced back to the early Dark Ages, when some people, who were called "Were Wolves", were thought to have an animal soul, and that these early werewolves, were not thought of as monsters, but were actually respected members of the community, also that WereWolves even had a special position in the early church. This has not been verified though, and is still widely speculated upon."

I almost fell out of my chair after reading that.

A version of the same ridiculousness can be found at http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Therianthropy.

As you can see, there's no evidence there at all, no historical precedent, just enormous nonsense slobbered onto the web. Attempt to pull from history and you get enormous extrapolations, carefully shaped and molded to fit a lifestyle; the therians I know are not shamans, born and raised into an eon-old culture of animal worship and dream trances, but internet-raised suburbanites, cherry-picking culture to support their social group much as one would shop for clothes at the mall. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77sJT8O56E
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:02 pm

Actually, Berserler, the references I gave were books, and scholarly books at that, but, of course, if you're not willing to look at the evidence I give you, there's not much else I can do for you. I hope your resistence to study isn't that great in school.

On the other hand Sharfan, you've got me there. And there is certainly the need for a thread to deal with the lifeless idiot (or, probably better said "the idiot that has no life"). All websites are plagued by them. But it's important to understand that not all people who call themselves Werewolves are in that category. Between Boy Scouts, the Christian Motorcycle Association, church work, Citizens Against Violence, the Department of Human Resources Quality Assurance committee, the SEHowl and various bit responsibilities, I've had to back away from a few things to get a little of my life back.

And you're probably right - history belongs in another thread. The reason that was brought up was to support that there are some that legitimately call themselves "Weewolves". I can tell that scholarly works don't impress some here, though.

Hmmm, what does impress you, Berserker? What kind of life do you have?

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Berserker » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:15 am

On the contrary, I'm probably one of this forum's biggest proponents of werewolf concepts outside of traditional mythology: http://thepacksden.net/thepackboard/vie ... f=1&t=7992

I'm sure "The Night Battles" by Carlos Ginzburg and "Werewolves and Vampires in Romania" by Harry A. Senn are very interesting, and you've championed them on other forums (I should mention that I'm already familiar with the Benandanti, for one.) But I'm wary of citing anything to support therianthropy at all, since I don't think the modern therian trend that arose on the internet--being inextricably tied to roleplaying games, youth goth/new-age subculture, and furry fandom--can or even should be justified with scholarly research. There's simply too much bullshit there, and truthfully I'm very tired of revising mythology to shoe-horn werewolfery into a squeaky clean thing divorced from modern fiction. It's a futile effort.

But this doesn't really matter, since we've already reached an agreement. In fact you said so yourself way back on page 2, that therians should avoid calling themselves werewolves on forums like this one, for the sake of semantics. And that's really all I'm getting at, despite inflating the thread with a lot of extra arguments.
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:26 pm

But what you're wrong about is that therianthropy is a spin-off of role-playing, Furry fandom, and goth-anything. The early Therians, many of whom I know personally, had very little to do with any of these groups. The overlap has, in fact, grown over the last 10 years. Most of the AHWW THerians considered themselves Weres (the term Therian didn't exist (as applied to therianthropes) back then) long before AHWW. AHWW is simply the vehicle that allowed them to find each other.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Sharfan » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:33 am

Alright, alright. I think everyone at least understands the point that you're trying to make, WolfVanZandt, although many disagree, with varying levels of intensity. You've gotten your point accross. I think we've already established the fact that you won't be able to convince the others of your beliefs/facts and vice-versa.

And, just to clarify, I'm on no one's side. I am neutral so as to remain a mediator.

So, I think it's time to stop spamming this thread with this useless back and forth game. Berserker made a good point: you've already said that 'Therians' should use the term to avoid confusion and complication. The possibility of the correct term actually being 'Werewolf' doesn't matter. The fact is that in today's structure, the best term to use would be 'Therian'. The argument from there has simply been technicalities of the definitions and term usage. Things that really don't hold any weight against the fact that you yourself have already agreed to. Such things might one day, but they don't today.

Now, could we please get back on topic. Or at least move this conversation somewhere else. I think this thread has taken enough punishment, don't you?

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by Sevena » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:14 am

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Last edited by Sevena on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WolfVanZandt
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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by WolfVanZandt » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:20 pm

Actually, I'm just answering posts. If I'm off topic, it's because the post before my post was off topic.

So what do you want to talk about in this thread? I get an email everytime someone posts here.

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Re: What to do with those who claim to be Werewolves

Post by RedEye » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:25 pm

Well, the title of this thread is "What to do with those who claim to be werewolves". We might try that as a theme.

Note: There is in place already the editorial position held by the staff of this board, and we have no plans on changing it in the forseeable future. That position is: Werewolves are fictional creatures with no basis in reality.

Does that mean they exist? Does that mean they don't exist? Immaterial.
Our policy is as stated above.

This thread might be used to discuss ways of making them prove themselves, or what to do if they can't. Just for fun, we might discuss what we would do if, policy to the contrary, somebody actually did shift into a fuzzy-toothy wolf-shaped person.
There are all sorts of things we can discuss relevant to the question of "What to do with..."
I believe there is a Therian thread for therians, someone could dust that off and restart it.

Really, there are all sorts of things you can do here.
RedEye: The Wulf and writer who might really be a Kitsune...

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